Well, it's also 30 years of friendship, but it's nice to see Seishin also comfortable around all things Toshio, just like Toshio him.
And wow we have a glimpse into some history here. Why did Takae move Toshio's bedroom to first floor? Why does Seishin feel guilty? (((Perhaps he often bothered Toshio at night like this in the past since he was child that Takae just decided to move Toshio's bedroom to first floor so that Seishin wouldn't cause a bigger mess and disturb the whole household. Doesn't mean Toshio didn't also contribute to all the ruckus, I figure. They were children. Takae must be thinking of Seishin as not so good of an influence but nothing can be done about it. It's funny if this is true because he feels guilty but he didn't stop his habit. Coming from Toshio it's understandable, but coming from Seishin it's almost funny in a way.)))
Soo Seishin does sometimes drink, though I figure nearly all the time it's because of Toshio. I was wondering about this, actually, so it's nice that I can actually get some closure about this.
Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 20 comments Show 20 comments Re: 8D sinnesspiel 2013-12-04 01:59 pm (UTC)(link) I'm amused that we're both more taken with the lead-in short paragraphs about their history than the plot movement; lest anyone think us too shallow, when you know the plot, you go to extraneous materials like novels specifically for such new things.
Bizarre, that. I probably won't update it again until the weekend, though. It should be finished by the time I finish chapter 1 at least.
I'm debating renaming 'Crow' to 'The Raven' depending on the other part titles. Part 2 is titled "Calling from the abyss" which I originally assumed was a reference to the Psalms' song quote "Out of the Depths I Have Cried" as the novel does have biblical references, but it may also be a reference to the poem by Charles Baudelaire the more I ruminate. If that's the case, maybe 'Crow' is actually a reference to Poe. I don't see a connection and just took it to mean crows, like heralds of death, but...Edited 2013-12-04 14:00 (UTC) Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 19 comments Show 19 comments Re: 8D (Anonymous) 2013-12-04 02:49 pm (UTC)(link) 8D - welp I myself cannot help it as I am a shipper. These new information are just too precious (read: yummy) to be overlooked. I aspire to understand their dynamic, and because I'm a shipper I'm especially very curious about how they actually feel about each other. Hahahah I'm probably grossing other readers out, but now that I have someone to talk to about this specific thing (since you like them romantically too, even if it's just for fun and not in hardcore sense. Welll I'm probably more invested than you) I just want to babble and exchange ideas. You are better at grasping things (and in many instances, are able to be more objective as I'm likely to be more invested therefore I'll be more biased, though I do try to be objective) which I'm grateful of. You have been a very great help!
Besides, the novel provides yummier materials, I cannot help it. Not just Toshio/Seishin stuffs, but generally as a whole. I have such novel-bias, so...
Completely lost about poetry/literature so I'll just leave everything up to you. I know that this other translation used Crows though. Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 18 comments Show 18 comments no subject sinnesspiel 2013-12-04 03:51 pm (UTC)(link) I'm the translator, it's my job to be objective. Much like Ozaki here, I find it rewarding to devil's advocate as well; in this chapter, he clearly believes something is going on and has amassed data, done some research, and reached a similar conclusion to Seishin, but he spent the first half making him argue it to him just to make sure the reasoning was solid. In fact, as much as I sadly believe the two are not canon, I might just be hoping somebody can come along and convince me they are. Either way, I love the exchange of ideas, it leads to the consideration of the many flavors of the characters or their relationship.
As for grossing anybody out, airlynx is the only other regular commenter, and when discussing the character's potential parenting styles, it went unspoken somehow that they were parents of the same child and Seishin was the delicate sickly mother, so I think you're in good company. I think there's one other who comments now and then to cheer the work on (or are they multiple people with one-off comments?) and I'm not even sure if they read the comment sections.
If someone disagrees, they're free to chime in, it's an open community. Or they're free to shrug and keep on truckin'. With the way Shiki was marketed I think you have to assume most fans will be yaoi fans. Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 17 comments Show 17 comments 8D (Anonymous) 2013-12-04 10:22 pm (UTC)(link) Weeellll as un-canon as they might be, they're still much more compassionate than Seishin and Sunako. (and yeahh, then I spend all my time analyzing (with my limited analysis skill) whether there are actual sparks between them or not, though it seems like the result doesn't come out really satisfying.)
It's canon that Toshio is real fond of Seishin, more than it seems to us readers in my opinion. (he's a tsundere after all) Seishin's emotionally detached, but there's no argument that Toshio is one of few people he cares about the most. But yeah... I fear of letting myself be misled, by reading things that don't actually exist as being there because I'm biased and hopeful. Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 16 comments Show 16 comments no subject sinnesspiel 2013-12-05 12:02 pm (UTC)(link) I can't even devil's advocate for the idea that Toshio doesn't like Seishin, and I can usually try to argue anything. I admit when I first analyzed Shiki I didn't think Seishin was terribly important to him because I did and still do partially entertain the idea that he's not actually that attached to any people at all.
But even if I try to argue for Ozaki as a particularly cold fish with a borderline sociopathic lack of attachments or empathy, it's evident that Seishin is the most important person to him in canon. I can perhaps argue it's utility, propinquity, habit, etc., or a terribly weak form of "liking" because he's an asshole, but I can't argue that he's not fond of him, or even that he's not one of if not the most important person in his life.
And the novels and a re-analysis of the anime with the novel lens have me less convinced of his borderline sociopathy. I could still argue it, but my current take is that he *is* in fact completely capable of the full range of attachment and emotions, sincerely likes some people and even cares for others, but just plain doesn't towards many.
In the manga I still get a strong, dry "no real feelings here" vibe, but I think that's because he monologues most of his "feelings" and they seem rationalized more than shown. Telling is more dry than showing if you're not some kind of poet or don't have voice, music, etc. to add to the words, words, words. I also think Fujiryuu went a little too far in trying to make Ozaki "heroic" as a shounen protag and didn't show many emotional responses or "weaknesses" besides anger, but then many viewed that coldness as far from heroic. I think the anime had a sliiiiightly better balance, though there are still also parts of him I think the manga were better with, and I'm willing to grant to each format that each media has elements it's better suited to express. And maybe the novel will blow them both away, but it'll really take some with craft tier writing for me to claim that the solid voice acting, music, motion, visible facial expressions, shot framing, etc. aren't enhancements on some level. Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 15 comments Show 15 comments 8D (Anonymous) 2013-12-05 01:21 pm (UTC)(link) I'm now rewatching the anime and comparing this certain part with the manga: the moment where Toshio first refers to Okiagari as Shiki. The manga is significantly different from the anime: in the manga, it was when Toshio has already moved Kyouko to the operating room and wondered about what he should name these creatures, that he remembers Seishin's novel and decided to pick the word from there (ch 20 page 19). In the anime, it's even before that -- he calls them Shiki out of nowhere (ep14), even before he knows that Kyouko is really going to rise up. As far as I know, he didn't call them Shiki before this occasion, he just calls them Shiki out of nowhere and it wasn't even an important scene like that in the manga (Takae serves him dinner, he wonders about the Shikis while already calling them Shiki, very much unlike the manga) not sure which I prefer... so say, as a person who knows more about the novel, which of the anime and manga is more faithful to the novel? Or you perhaps already know about how this part turns out in the novel? Because it may be different from both the anime and manga.
aannnddd ep19 -- well, it's pretty much concluded that Seishin may disagree with Toshio, but he doesn't hold ill thoughts towards him, just like Toshio does him. He's pretty much worried about him, when Tatsumi breaks the news about Chizuru's death, Seishin thinks: 'I see, Toshio's managed to alert the villagers' and there's no malice here as far as I see. Sunako commands Tatsumi to kill Toshio, but then Seishin asks Sunako to run away lest she be killed by Toshio. At this point I think he doesn't think the Shikis are going to win. Sometime later -- when Tatsumi returns to Kanemasa, Seishin asks where Toshio is. Tatsumi says 'worried, are you?' (thanks for clearing this up, Tatsumiiii) Seishin may be emotionally detached, but he's indeed empathetic and humane. Then when Toshio and co come barging into Kanemasa, Toshio looks at the uneaten meal and thinks 'you were here, Seishin?' but what strikes me the most is the ending though, Seishin thinking that one of the villagers will embrace an intent to kill him, if what Sunako says is right (I assume it's her quote of 'when there's intent to kill, there's always a reason) but when he thinks of that, it was Toshio's gaze of murder intent on screen -- I think out of all people, he thinks it's Toshio who'll eventually kill him.
ep20 -- when Ohkawa the father finds out that Shikis can control humans, he says: 'Doesn't that mean that we have traitors who sold out to Shiki, like the Kirishiki guy?' and right on cue, Toshio immediately thinks of Seishin. He looks quite sad I'd say, but then Ohkawa interrupts his line of thoughts, saying: 'they're collaborators!' Toshio's eyes widen, thinking of Seishin's back as he walks away (from him, yeah) in the hospital at the moment of moral horizon. Here, Toshio looks quite upset, saying: 'Even so, we can't kill them can we? It'll be murder.' He says this while leaving Ohkawa and this other old man, which makes me think he really is upset. It's creepy that Seishin's thoughts in the ending of ep19 is immediately addressed implicitly here.
ep21 -- Toshio's eyes catching Seishin in the driver's seat but Seishin doesn't even notice him, and then his gaze continues to linger on his direction for few more seconds. He already knows that people are after Seishin, but yeahhh he lets it.
ep22 -- nothing happened. But, but -- when Toshio says 'what I've done may have just been an useless struggle' he's looking at the temple, which is already on fire. It could be that he's looking at Sotoba as a whole, really, but it's the mountain -- where the temple is located at -- which i think he sets his gaze at. He's looking up, after all.
So, my conclusion -- these two men clearly like/care about one another (to what extent -- I think it's pretty high up there), but they're still pretty much destined to go at each other's throats. Toshio is way more sentimental, so it seems like his mind's full of Seishin, while Seishin, even though detached, is empathetic and humane. He's kind towards everyone, but he's not that sentimental, in my opinion, so it seems like he's indifferent towards Toshio, not to mention he's conflicted inside about lots of things that he doesn't constantly think about Toshio in sentimental sense -- but there's no doubt that he cares a lot about him. Even post Shiki, I don't think this is going to change much. Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 14 comments Show 14 comments no subject sinnesspiel 2013-12-05 06:14 pm (UTC)(link) What interests me is that, in either case, Ozaki opts to name them after Seishin's book rather than the local legend, a word he and the town have known their entire life: Okiagari. When I played him, he didn't call them Shiki when talking to others, because Seishin was much less important to him in that game because there was nobody playing Seishin. So, other characters he met who were more involved ended up more important to him (with nobody playing him, it was impossible for Seishin to be involved even if I think he would have been no matter who else Ozaki spoke with--this caused a lot of complications because realistically the Shiki should have also been able to counteract Ozaki bringing in reinforcements, but I can't control them to make it so because it's not my game), and he called them "vampires" rather than The Risen or Okiagari because none of the people he interacted with were from Sotoba. He picked the term that would best fit the others' understandings. Of course, this could be reaching a bit and he may just call them Shiki because you need your mains to call them that if you want it to stick with your audience.
I agree with most of your analysis and particularly found his reaction when Ohkawa says "they're collaborators" to be significant. I do think that it is ultimately also Ozaki's true moral reasoning that they can't kill influenced humans, but the fact that he forced himself to say it flippantly when we see a true emotional reaction inarguably linked to Seishin speaks volumes. I really like his seiyuu's delivery there.
Also note that the food Ozaki finds as a hint to Seishin's presence is untouched. At this point Ozaki has absolutely no way of knowing if Seishin is a prisoner, a conspirator, or little more than a spectator. All he knows is he's alive, because there was food for him. Indeed, we the audience who know more would be hard pressed to view him as much more than a spectator until later when he's explicitly asked by Tatsumi to do him a favor, and he doesn't agree until told it's to protect Sunako. He's unwilling to kill at this point even for their side, or even when at the temple; he accidentally defeats the guy attacking him there and is visibly distraught over it.
One aspect to consider is that much like Seishin supposes Ozaki may kill him, Ozaki is supposing that as one of those collaborators, Seishin may kill him. These guys have been actively going after his life, and if Seishin has any sway at all, he hasn't been calling them off of that, and indeed he must have been at the base hearing the obvious plans built around killing him specifically.
But he's still with them, and when he sees him driving by, Seishin is under nobody's control, his face is not in a lethargic daze. He looks worn and exhausted, but he remarks in the manga and novel when Yasuzou shoots at him that he'd been seeing that trance face all summer and should have recognized it. Seishin doesn't have it. He has 0 reason to suppose Seishin doesn't want him dead anymore. Seishin's not alone as one who may feel his friend would kill him; in fact, the line about there always being intent to kill would go both ways. Both have reasons to kill each other, even without hatred. And for all Ozaki knows, Seishin hates him. Maybe he was another obligation all along. Ow.
At that, he's reduced to idle "Aa"s in response to Ohkawa's plans. Again, his seiyuu nails the tone on those simple wordless grunts.
Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 13 comments Show 13 comments 8D (Anonymous) 2013-12-06 01:11 am (UTC)(link) Ah, I see. It's not strange at all when Sunako adopts the word shiki from Seishin, but it's a bit weird indeed if it's Toshio who does that. Firstly, he doesn't seem to be very interested in sorta-religious works like those Seishin writes, but even so, he's sort of updated about Seishin's works. He reads Seishin's essay after all, and it's just an essay. If he reads his essay, I think it's likely that he also reads Seishin's other works, or at least he knows them to an extent, even if he doesn't seem to be particularly interested.
And I want to talk about this selfishness issue. When you like a person you're usually selfish about them (of whatever nature that feeling is), and now I'm attributing this to Seishin. The way he often visits Toshio at most unlikely of time (basically whenever he wishes to), disturbs his sleep or so, but he still does that even if he feels regret, shows something, in my opinion. He often visited him at night in the past, didn't it? The fact that he does this even when he's an adult shows that he has done this since long, visiting him whenever he wishes to. And Toshio doesn't mind either. It's interesting, that he often complains about everything (even if he actually doesn't mind), but he never complains about Seishin visiting him even at night, even if he knows he needs to rest. Well, it's no secret that he loves his company.
I don't think there's anything wrong with going off of your first impression. The staff works to construct a scene to be taken in in real time first, analyzed later, so a person's initial emotional impression is a reflection of their efforts and vital to any emotionally driving story. Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 11 comments Show 11 comments 8D (Anonymous) 2013-12-06 02:00 pm (UTC)(link) Ah, I actually was entertaining the idea about Seishin's habit when he and Toshio were younger. There's no proof to support this, but it's quite logical to think that things might be more... Intense in the past when they were just carefree students. Maybe Seishin and Toshio often hung out together at night until very late, maybe there were even sleepovers. Because they're now adults, not to mention one of them is married already, it makes sense if both of them cannot hang out together till very late.
Maybe my idea of romantic love is too shallow then. But when analyzing them I don't expect anything too intense as well, so I was surprised when you said you noticed these from Seishin... Well, I might have sorta noticed it too, but couldn't put it into words.
I definitely need to rewatch/reread and observe and analyze again, but this is my temporary take so far: Toshio pretty much takes Seishin as a given. Seishin's always there, always the one who supports, always the one who gives -- he expects Seishin to always be there to support him. 'Always' is the key word here. Since he expects Seishin to always support him, pretty much extended to: always be there for him (whenever he needs him). he thinks they're a package; partners for-ever, will always be side-by-side forever. Pretty much formed by 30 years of friendship. Because of this, he pretty much never entertains the idea that something he does will involve a choice that involves Seishin as his opponent.
I actually don't get why you think that Toshio thinking of Seishin as a hypocrite, so I want to ask: why do you think that? Maybe this is also me taking ep11 at face value, but I really am in the opinion that Toshio is really just questioning his moral. Basically just about: 'what the hell are you thinking? Get your shit together!' don't think that the scared idea is too relevant here. Maybe it's just me, but saying someone is a hypocrite usually involves one to compare this person's current behavior to their past behavior.... doesn't it? (and I don't see Toshio doing this in ep11.) but I'm rather shallow and basically understand nothing about everything, so I may be wrong. I may also be forgotting some important stuffs from the anime. Pssshhhh I need to rewatch and this time Very Thoroughly.
I also don't think that Toshio thinks of the villagers who refuse to acknowledge the shikis as avoiding to make a choice (for the sake of making a choice) though. I think it's exactly as he said: people tend to not acknowledge things which aren't convenient for them. People who basically blind their own selves, ignoring whatever happens before them. But again, I may be forgotting some important parts.
Crush has many degrees, and if you ask me, (given my understanding about romantic love in general which is shallow, as I'm not even a romantic person) then Toshio can be seen as liking Seishin quite romantically. (but in the meantime, don't believe me) lol maybe I should ask my friends for their opinion on this. (given they're much more of a romantic, their opinion will also be quite valid to me.) they don't know Shiki though, so I'll just be saying about person A and B. For a starter, I'll be asking my sister (who also doesn't know about Shiki) since I'm also curious and this is just not my area of expertise. (because then I'll be doubting myself)
I think Toshio can be seen as crushing on Seishin in a way, but yeaahhh it's not a massive thing. A lot of people also don't want to neglect their values (and self) just for the person they love. I also entertain this idea about Toshio doesn't really think/put a name into what he feels about Seishin, because they're already a given, already awesome, even when some romantic feelings are actually there. He's rather sentimental about Seishin, (the only person he's shown to be actually sentimental about) but yeah he's his own person first and foremost. Even if he likes Seishin romantically, if Seishin opposes him, regarding something as massive as this war between humans and shiki, makes sense if Toshio abandons him. How could he choose a person who opposes him over the lives of a thousand people? Not to mention it's his values and justice.
While for Seishin, who never consider the villagers' lives as terribly important, makes sense if he's more conflicted when the person who matters the most opposes him. He hates the village, only slightly sympathetic with the shikis, but Toshio is on the side of those he absolutely despises... The choice seems a bit harder for him.
There's also an idea of Toshio not the type who likes to shower the person he loves with affection. This could be conscious or subconscious. Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 10 comments Show 10 comments no subject sinnesspiel 2013-12-06 03:29 pm (UTC)(link) Now it's gone more into what we would consider support for the crush/romantic feeling angle than canon analysis. I don't have a satisfactory, necessary and sufficient set of criteria, but to say something is supported, I need to ask myself: what would support the null hypothesis? It isn't valid to say that an idea can be supported unless you can list things that, either by being present or not being present, would detract it. Thus I ask myself: what would support the angle of a non-romantic, friendly affection (vs. love)? That's the best I could come up with. Thus, while I agree that it's just not in Ozaki's personality to abandon his morals or the people, I think that one sign of romantic love would be at the very least some internal discord over that. Similar to the way I don't think the lack of physical or sexual expression is enough to write it off alone, I consider the lack of meeting the criteria for all of the potential standards for romantic love (vs. friendship) to be the buzzkill rather than any one specific failing. Likewise on this line of gestalt, if Seishin only met one or maybe two of the criteria, I'd hesitate to label it a crush too definitively as opposed to it just being his personality to be conflicted. I'd love to entertain the idea that they have different kinds of love via more determinators, but I'd need to define them and be satisfied they meet a criterion distinct from friendship.
I think Ozaki sees Seishin as a hypocrite (until he makes his choice) for reasons along the line of what he said at Setsuko's grave: "Their deaths are terrible, but people's deaths aren't?" Seishin is operating under the idea that killing is never just; Ozaki finds a failure to stop murder when you can to be akin to murder itself. From an objective stand point, you, I, philosophers, and many readers can see the difference between this even if we agree, but this is how I think we are shown Ozaki thinks.
A man is going to stab another to death. You can strike the stabber dead or by not doing so kill the victim yourself. This is how Ozaki sees it.
A man is going to stab another to death. You can strike the stabber dead and be a murderer yourself or do nothing. This is how Seishin sees it.
Saying things like 'stop the stabber without killing him' is intentionally missing the point of the moral exercise to avoid an uncomfortable decision. *Of course* that's better. If possible. I think Ozaki finds lingering at this "seek alternatives stage" hypocritical in that it's choosing Seishin's way without owning up to choosing it.
With the masses, he's upset that they realize "something" is going on, want it to stop, but don't want to stop it, so they act like they realize nothing. Rather than hypocrisy defined by past vs. present behavior, it's a discord between current values and actions. "Someone" should stop this; stopping it would be the right thing to do. But not me, because the means of stopping it are wrong and it'd be the wrong thing to do. So we'll dress it up as the baptism of reason and pretend not to notice anything so we're not compelled to act, which is in itself hypocritical because we have fear, we are noticing something. We're calling the doctor out to ask about "it", we're having meetings in the day time and are afraid of the dark.
They've not only realized something is going on, they've realized the only means to combat it is going to mean fighting the ones doing it. The masses are not actually dumb. They talk about alternatives to violent murder and insist on trying anesthetics, but where's anybody crying out for a fair trial and humane execution when the masses are stoning Chizuru? They're not actively choosing inaction or humanity or to let the Shiki do what they want, either.
Edit: I've seen a lot of fanfic run with the "Ozaki = potential Jinrou?" idea. I personally think if he got Jinrou'd, he'd basically pull a Natsuno. He'd be mostly indistinguishable from a normal human besides an accelerated healing rate. He could try biting every single villager to protect them from being controlled, and also get a strength boost from the blood, but somehow I din't think it'd be in his best interests to try arguing for them to let him do that no matter how strong a strategy it is. He could essentially run the exact same game against them he did as a normal human though. As a regular Shiki, I think he'd still try to subvert them, but would be in a much more difficult position... which is to say one that would be extremely interesting. Edited 2013-12-08 04:13 (UTC) Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 5 comments Show 5 comments 8D (Anonymous) 2013-12-08 04:54 am (UTC)(link) Oh, you're flattering me! But seriously, you haven't heard me talking. I'm very bad at speaking English, while I practice on reading and writing more -- I read and write mostly in English. Maybe I was able to give that impression because I pay more attention to grammar and structures, those are what I learn about the most. While I'm lazy at updating my vocab, which I'm sure you've noticed -- I use easy words every time.
Ah, I didn't mean 'they're most likely to be canon' because there are nobody to pair them with. It's because they're the main focus of the story and have the most curious dynamic. Both of them are pretty much the most important person to one another. (That said, I'm quite canon-strict) I'm quite aware of Toshio being fond of Ritsuko, especially in the anime, but the way Toshio being fond of Seishin tops it every time, in my opinion.
'Main characters won't be paired off (I assume with each other?)' as in... They will not feel romantic love for each other EVER or they may feel romantic love for each other but will not get into relationship for various reason? If it's the former, then wahhh too bad, if it's the latter, then... It's better (for me) because I pretty much don't really mind their sad ending and future (read: don't really want to think about it lest I get distressed) I pretty much only care about the possibility of them having romantic feelings for each other (to a certain degree) throughout the course of the story.
I've begun asking by the way, starting from my sister. I'm starting to get some ideas from our discussion, it's great 8D Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 4 comments Show 4 comments no subject sinnesspiel 2013-12-08 05:25 am (UTC)(link) I'm not sure which she meant. She did say that if she paired Mai and Naru up, it'd be all over, that there's some tension between them that's essential to the story, romantic or otherwise. I only know the anime, and not intimately, so I can't say if there's any romantic interest between them at any point or not. If there was, I'd say it's clear she meant no happy endings, but all the middles you like.
I do know that yaoi back in those days was generally expected not to have a happy ending. Like you, I'm more interested in possibilities than endings. Two people mutually in love who never say or consummate it would still qualify as "canon" to me as long as the romantic interest, sentiment or desire to be so is expressed to the audience.
I'm excited to hear what kind of ideas you're getting; I also hope you end up inspired and writing something after all! Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 3 comments Show 3 comments 8D (Anonymous) 2013-12-08 06:43 am (UTC)(link) The way she wrote Shiki though... That there are two guys, two main characters who care about each other the most on a very personal level that there's no other person they care about this much... Don't tell me she couldn't see that we'd get ideas. And if she didn't want us to get so worked up and all heated, why would she write it that way to begin with... Seishin who pretty much suits the gay trope, Toshio who's all territorial and dominant, who doesn't even love his wife, those improper habits they still have even in their 30s and one of them is married...
I don't know how significant Naru and Mai's bond is to the story, are them only being friends and partners already enough, or is it needed that they're so much more? Assume that Ono primarily only does what is needed (despite it may not really pleases her. I don't think she'll refrain from writing things which she doesn't particularly like if those are actually needed for the story). While Seishin and Toshio, their bond is needed to move the plot, for their arcs themselves and even extended to stuffs other than that. Their bond is quite central to the story that it's only logical if it's intended to be something very deep, and usually, the involvement of romantic feelings (even if they're not the the most prominent thing in their bond, just merely this hidden thing) will give it so much status and value, which proves how important and central it is -- for both of them, to the story in general.
If this is only a typical shounen work which mainly works around friendship first and romance later (the romance isn't even always vital -- especially if the love interest isn't a terribly important character) -- then I suppose it merely being friendship is enough. But this is more of an adult work (isn't it?) and two adults being all like that in adult works usually have something more (maybe not particularly romantic feelings, but there are other than merely friendship). (eh, I probably sound like I'm undermining friendship but) to a lot of people, any bond in fictional works will feel so much more if it involves romantic feelings. Or if they feel like it does. They will recognize it as something vital instantly. (and everyone knows that Seishin and Toshio's bond is very significant)
...Uh, that's just my opinion. Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 2 comments Show 2 comments no subject sinnesspiel 2013-12-08 04:09 pm (UTC)(link) Oh yeah, I'd 100% agree the novel's not a shounen work; it's definitely adult or at the very least young adult (upper teens). It's a very cynically analytic work, so that complicates what defines a pair as romantic, as almost all attachments and closeness (romantic or not), particularly between Ozaki and Seishin, are dissected to the point we question if they're valid or real at all. In most works, I'd accept marriage as a face-value sign of a romantic relationship even if we're not really shown much of anything but a ring and one or both spouses are relegated to background characters; Shiki breaks down at least two marriages very thoroughly, so in the context of Shiki marriage alone is arguably not a good criterion for that. In Ozaki and Kyouko's case it seems there was never any love. In Yoshikazu's case, he goes from hopeful to return to his life with all the warmest feelings about his family in the world to, upon the mere thought of rejection by Sachiko and its unfortunate likelihood, thinking "I hate her" within a minute. Shiki wants you to question relationships and feelings, though decidedly not in the more typical "maybe it's more way" of romcoms and shounen/shoujo manga, but in the subversive "maybe it's less" way. Far from explicitly saying Toshio and Seishin have any kind of relationship (friendship, romance, a working relationship as the village leaders, etc.) it dissects and questions the nine hells out of the set of feelings between them, regardless of whether you'd define them as friendship, romantic, or anything else.
The problem for me in declaring it romantic is the lack of anything to distinguish it as distinctly romantic. Consider Motoko and Kanami. Very similar even if not as central to the work as Seishin and Ozaki. Neither of us would mind if they were a couple I'm sure, but did either of us think them a romantic couple? I may be wrong, but I suspect if either of us did or do think that of them from here on, it'd be as a consequence of supposing if the criteria that work for the pair we want (Ozaki/Seishin) match them too, they're a couple too, rather than thinking they're a couple by the criteria themselves. That suggests our criteria needs fine tuning. Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 1 comment Show 1 comment 8D (Anonymous) 2013-12-08 07:13 pm (UTC)(link) Uuuuu yeah Shiki is a rather tricky work. I have to give that.
If we talk about feelings, they're certainly there. So far in the novels, Toshio shows more fondness/affection regarding Seishin, while Seishin's mostly trapped in his own thoughts/shows a degree of annoyance regarding Toshio. Doesn't mean it's all that though, in my opinion. I'm also in the opinion that Toshio at times doesn't go easy on Seishin because he's fond of him.
I'm aware that it doesn't feel enough though, especially from Toshio's end. I can see that Seishin's his most treasured partner, and that he thinks of them as partners. One set, one package. I have ideas, but they still need some more considering. Uh, I certainly have to consult people more... Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent no subject estgold 2015-03-24 04:11 am (UTC)(link) There was something really tangible about the way Toshio's actions were described in this chapter and I enjoyed the atmospheric feeling. And the Seishin + Ozaki interaction, haha. Though, every chapter is smooth and really nice to read, I don't think we could have gotten a better person to translate this in their free time!
When I first tried to watch the anime (I got distracted and put it down halfway through the first episode, I'm so glad I went back) I hadn't previously read the manga so I was a bit jarred by the art style before quickly warming up to it, and even was too busy admiring it to want to draw fanart. I'm loving the novel, it makes me want to draw so much. The more I read the more I fall in love with Shiki, it's becoming one of my favourite series and I'm now looking into other stuff the author has done... Thread Reply to this Thread Hide 2 comments Show 2 comments no subject sinnesspiel 2015-03-24 03:08 pm (UTC)(link) The seiyuu had some comments to make on the hair, too. I kept looking for the post where I linked it, but it's possible I haven't made a post for the radio show translation I did after all...
Toshio and Seishin's seiyuu discuss the anime, the hair, and the obscene length of the novel. Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 1 comment Show 1 comment no subject estgold 2015-03-24 08:39 pm (UTC)(link) Count me interested if you ever decide to make a post! Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent