I also have imagined that Seishin went to uni not too far from Sotoba, perhaps Mizobe -- Toshio is more likely to go to uni farther than Seishin, so if Toshio's uni is actually located in Mizobe or its neighbor cities/towns, that means their unis weren't too far apart. Med students are hella busy, and Toshio was a student dedicated to his studies -- but if it's true that they weren't too far apart actually, I think they met more often/slightly more often than what we imagined before throughout uni. Because their unis aren't too far from Sotoba, they might returned home more frequently too.
Thread Reply to this Thread Hide 14 comments Show 14 comments no subject sinnesspiel 2014-01-11 05:39 am (UTC)(link) The university hospital where he used to work is called the 'university hospital' not the 'national hospital' so I assume the national hospital in Mizobe is not the one he worked at, nor the one associated with his school. Thus, I assume he did not go to med school in Mizobe. It seems Taniguchi lectures at the university hospital and does some consultations in Mizobe now and then; the national hospital is apparently just a place for new graduates to get some experience under their belts before going back to their home towns to do private practice.
Taniguchi may not have any regular patients and is indeed at Mizobe twice a week as a consultant (this isn't necessarily true--note he could be some people's PCP and they just have to have their appointments on those days when he's in town). It's pretty common for some doctors in Japan to be more of lecturers than practitioners, or rather, most teachers are apparently not necessarily practitioners; this is a subject of some controversy for those critical of the Japanese Medical Association.
Edit: Ah! I translated it as "while lecturing at the university" which could be read as "he lectured at the university in Mizobe." I see where the misunderstanding came from now. Thanks for the note; I fixed the translation to be a little more clear!Edited 2014-01-11 05:44 (UTC) Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 13 comments Show 13 comments 8D (Anonymous) 2014-01-11 06:01 am (UTC)(link) yes, that 'while' part was what got me into that conclusion; so we're back to square one, I figure. Feeling kinda disappointed :p express train? That sounds far. How far do you think it is from Sotoba? This will make a good reference.
Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 12 comments Show 12 comments no subject sinnesspiel 2014-01-11 09:36 pm (UTC)(link) I meant it to be read like "He goes to school while working" as in, these are two things he does separately and balances out, rather than "he watches TV while eating," as in, he does these two things concurrently. This is why it's good other people are reading and commenting; my translations make sense in my head, I know what I mean, but....
I can't imagine anyone taking an express train for something less than about two hours away by regular means of commute, myself, but we're getting way too hazy there. Probably safe to say the university's at least 100km away and not on a separate island? We know Sotoba is located in the western region of Japan, which could be anywhere from further south to just barely south of dead center, leaving the location of Taniguchi's base of operations wide open in either direction... Whether he comes for two days in a row or two separate days during the week would also determine how far it's realistic for him to come from. But we don't know for sure. So, yeah, square one. Damn it. Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 11 comments Show 11 comments 8D (Anonymous) 2014-01-12 04:04 am (UTC)(link) That 'while' part can mean two things, but it's rather ambiguous and thus confusing. Translating is a very difficult job I figure, because you have to be fluent in two languages at once; the language of the text in which to be translated, and the language the text to be translated into. Converting one language into another with all its contextual meanings isn't easy, that's why translating takes time. I'm deeply grateful of what you've done. Thank youuu very much really!!
I imagine Toshio as a person who loves someone but doesn't really like to show it through actions. He may also be a person who flirts without actually putting his heart into it, when he decides to flirt that is (which is not often I figure - he doesn't strike me as a person who likes to flirt) (inspired by him flirting with Chizuru, though that may be a different thing because there's hidden motive. These are only what-if scenarios)
That being said, considering 2.2.6, I can now guess about what happened when Toshio found out about Seishin's suicide attempt. There might be utter disbelief, anger, on one side he wanted to punch the shit out of Seishin for his stupidity, but on one side there's a feeling of helplessness -- a sort of feeling like he's scared, because Seishin felt even farther. (based upon my guess that Toshio actually understands and gets Seishin quite a lot) There's no way Seishin would tell Toshio so I guess he'd have to find out on his own -- whether from seeing the scar on Seishin's hand or from all the gossiping, or from Seishin's parents -- which added into all the anger. Another fic prompt and apparently too much laziness. This one is a bit tricky tho and I have to do a bit of research beforehand.
What's your opinion on this particular matter? Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 10 comments Show 10 comments no subject sinnesspiel 2014-01-12 07:25 am (UTC)(link) Fortunately, Japan has a 'while' which means specifically one or the other. In this case, it was specifically the one that means doing two things separately, so we do know that Taniguchi does not lecture in Mizobe, at least.
I'm not sure how to take his flirting with Chizuru; obviously, there's an ulterior motive, and to top it off she's obviously heavily and shamelessly into him so it's not like he really even has to try to turn on the charm. A dry "let's date" pretty much does the trick. I get the impression he'd be pretty shameless and forward if he were flirting, myself, but that's because that's how he is in almost everything else, and in the only remotely 'flirtatious' scene we see---which is, as you mentioned, not exactly an honest, pure expression of romantic/sexual interest.
by the way, I'd like you to translate this certain part of book 2; I'm going to paste many paragraphs at once because I figure that'll help you to get the contextual meaning right, though I'm specifically asking for the Seishin related sentences :p This is from the start of Toshio's part of the chapter:
（これから……どうする）
急がなければ、と思う一方で、倦怠感が押し寄せてくる。あれほど理を説いたのに、理解を得られなかったことが敏夫を萎えさせていた。愚か者と呼ばれ、気違い沙汰だと言われたほうがましだった。あんなふうに同情めいて宥められるなんて。
敏夫は跳ね起きた。ベッドに近寄ってこようとしていた人影が、驚いたように後退った。
とっさに手を伸ばして枕許のスタンドを点ける。明かりを浴びて浮かび上がった女の顔には見覚えがなかった。
「お茶をいただきに来たの。そう誘ってくださったんでしょう？」
「時間ってものを考えて欲しいんだがね。――どうやって入り込んできたんだ」
「奥様が合い鍵を作らせてくれたの」
Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 6 comments Show 6 comments no subject sinnesspiel 2014-01-13 07:37 am (UTC)(link) 'Seishin was the one it couldn't possibly be' is presented as a separate reason from being out of his character. That might be relevant to you and how you perceive the 'limit' part: I suspect it's related to the fact that they're kind of fighting at this point.
Edit: My translation of that keeps bugging me so even though it's not the final draft, here's a better version:
As he groaned lightly and rolled over, there was the sound of the door opening in the darkness. 'Seishin?' he had thought for a moment, but he knew too well that it wasn't. Seishin was the only one it couldn't possibly be; even Seishin himself couldn't come in by sneaking into his room as he liked. That meant that the possibilities for who else would visit him in the night like this were limited.
I'm waffling between that an "Seishin though he may be he couldn't come sneaking..." as the grammar implies that in spite of being Seishin he cannot, as if if anyone could be expected to do it, Seishin could. But 'Seishin though he may be' might be too stylized.
Insight into the stupid crap I fuss over that makes your guys' subchapters come out so late. Chapter 4's sub chapters are so long and nuanced that there are a lot more stupid things I get caught up on like this; that's why you're back to once-a-week sub chapters on this.Edited (stupid crap I fuss over that makes your guys' subchapters come out so late.) 2014-01-13 10:33 (UTC) Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 5 comments Show 5 comments 8D (Anonymous) 2014-01-13 11:43 am (UTC)(link) I also think of it as a mix of 'Seishin is too polite for sneaking into someone's room unanounced' and 'well we're kinda fighting now so it couldn't be Seishin even if he's the most likely to visit me at this hour'
From how it looks like, I think even Toshio doesn't mean to fight with Seishin even if they just had a major disagreement, even if Toshio was the one to push Seishin away (at the moment of Moral Horizon). Seishin doesn't seem to me as the one intending to fight as well, he just left Toshio alone because Toshio told him to go back home. It seems to me that Toshio only begins to realize that Seishin's sort of 'left' when he knows that Seishin's surrendered himself to the Kanemasa, and only fully begin to consider the idea that Seishin's actually opposed him around the 'they're collaborators!' part I figure. From how it looks like he's being kinda slow, it rather shows his psyche which expects Seishin to always be there on his side, active or passive supporter. Even if there are occasions when he doesn't support Toshio, he expects Seishin to just stay on neutral ground, being a rather passive person he is. He's never imagined that they'll stand before one another as actual enemies before. That's how people are about their best friends I figure. Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 4 comments Show 4 comments Re: 8D (Anonymous) 2014-01-15 03:26 pm (UTC)(link) 8D -- riight so this is the part! That said, I don't really think Toshio is actually thinking about Seishin in particular. I think Toshio indeed shows some sort of hesitancy, though that may be because collaborators are still human. (uhm I'm trying to be objective here haha)
「でも」と、大川は一成らを身体で遮るようにして顔を寄せてくる。「桐敷の旦那みたいな例もあるじゃないですかい」
大川は頷く。確かにそうだ。協力者が正志郎一人とは限らない。村の中からも協力者が出ていておかしくはないだろう。そう――少なくとも一人、寝返ったかもしれない者がいることを、敏夫は知っていた。
「そうですかね」
ふむ、と大川は頷いて顔を離したが、納得したようには見えなかった。敏夫は半ば眠気で朦朧とした頭で思う。この混乱の中、死んでしまえば屍鬼も人も違いなど分からない。ましてや人狼も傀儡も協力者も、区別する方法などないに等しい。不審な行動を取った者は片づけてしまったほうが話は早い。それを咎める方法もないだろう。こいつなら、やるかもしれない……。
「松――お前、逃げ出したんじゃなかったのか」
「へえ。こいつは驚いた。お前みたいな小心者が逃げも隠れもせずにやってくるとはよ」
（どこかで見たも何もない……）
松村は近づいてくる。敏夫は跳ね起き、濡れ縁から外へと転がり落ちた。
え、と大川が振り返る。松村が懐から拳銃を出した。例のやつだ、と身を伏せながら敏夫は思った。夏からこちら、嫌というほど見た。発症した顔だ。
「こりゃあ、いったい」
「しかし、大川さん」
「兼正の旦那と同じだよ。協力者だ」
Yeah I forgot about that part of Salem's Lot! I think there's a part there when the head vamp convinces a priest that his holy items hold no meaning...and then breaks the cross.
It was probably a chance for Ozaki to look badass. "There's nothing to fear but fear itself." Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 8 comments Show 8 comments no subject (Anonymous) 2014-01-26 11:55 pm (UTC)(link) I guess she might not much like vampire stories if they're no longer escapism or worse are now insulting. Vampires haven't been good guys in fiction until modern days. She doesn't seem to like being called a vampire, but then she's happy to call Tatsumi and company werewolves based on them being common in werewolf stories, isn't she? In the two vampire canons I know of (but haven't personally read--Twilight and Parasol Protectorate, a popular series with my RP group) vampires and werewolves are enemies, as far as I've been told.
I suspect Ono didn't go for symbols only mattering when you believe in them since a major theme for Seishin's arc is the type of 'faith' that's considerably more personal and thus less based on rituals and symbols. Too much focus on symbols can undermine that, while just a little bit of it focuses on how ostracized the Shiki feel by it being excluded from or running counter to the natural order. They can't go along with the ordered faiths that hold societies together any more than Seishin can (for personal reasons on his part). Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 7 comments Show 7 comments no subject airlynx 2014-02-02 04:28 am (UTC)(link) Interestingly enough, in Dracula--although it's not the first vampire story, but it definitely was the one that popularized the idea of the charming vampire--the titular character is in cahoots with wolves (although they aren't werewolves...as far as I know. The author never said they weren't...!) At the beginning when Harker is in the carriage on the way to Castle Dracula, his carriage becomes surrounded by wolves, and also when he tries to leave he's blocked by wolves. Also there's one part where he sees a woman come up to the castle asking for her child back, and the Count kinda summons the wolves and they show up and eat her. It's been a while since I read it the last time, but there are a few other mentions of wolves being on Dracula's side. I don't even know where the popular werewolves vs. vampire thing came from..
Then is there a hidden meaning behind her calling Tatsumi a werewolf? If you go by the servant angle, she probably just means to say that he's like a servant or a pet. But if she considers them enemies, then you could read into it like she thinks herself pretty high and mighty for taming one.
I don't mind not having symbolism in Shiki, or really overt symbolism at least. If I try, I can come up with some, like pine trees standing for death or something, buuut it's not that hard because that's what Seishin's essay is all about.
I'm sure the novel will go into it more, but so far I'm noticing Seishin focusing a lot on people's right to their own faith, however they define it, and how being true to it is essential. The Ohtsuka case gets an outburst from him that people dare to ostracize them; it might be the only time, short of pushing the idea of danger with Toshio, that he's been very adamant about anything. He's really into the former Kanemasa martyr guy's story too. I'd be really surprised if all that doesn't turn out central to his development. But then almost all of this is completely absent from the anime/manga....
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2014-02-05 03:18 am (UTC)(link)
Dracula's a pretty interesting read; it's written like a compilation of diaries and journals and letters of the main characters, that tell the story. This is helpful in letting the reader know everyone's point of view, and also to make sure that every event is covered by someone. It's written eloquently, like most 19th century works of literature...compared to it, Shiki is a light novel! I wouldn't say it's great though, just pretty good. I don't wanna be a Vampire Hipster and be like "psh, I only read the /original/ vampire lore"; well okay, a) if you want to read only original vampire lore, you have to look at some ancient Slavic texts, like Bram Stoker did not invent vampires and b) older doesn't necessarily mean better. I don't really like the contemporary YA paranormal fiction but I'm sure there's some good ones out there somewhere. I'm thinking Sunako would be more of a Dracula or an Anne Rice reader (and actually, if she really found out that she was a vampire by reading, she could have actually read some aforementioned Slavic texts). She wouldn't approve of fetishizing vampirism, so she's not under any illusions about herself, but she does accept what she is. I wonder what life (well, undeath) would be like for a Shiki who had read the YA paranormal romances in life. They would probably be disillusioned and cry.
I'm really wondering what the Ohtsukas' new religion is! Yeah though, the Ohtsuka case made Seishin gain a lot of respect in my eyes. I think you can tie it to his hatred of the village. What he's saying is that it doesn't matter what your religion is, as long as you stick to your beliefs...which isn't what the general populace of Sotoba's about after all. Like any religious group, they (well, some) can only accept their own religion as the truth. And then if they see other people not believing in (or in their eyes, denying) 'the truth', then those people would seem stupid to them. If I had my way and an unlimited budget, I would finance another Shiki series where none of the novel bits are missing. It would have to run well over one season, though, and its length will be on par with Bleach, only better. But then how do you really portray the philosophical bits visually? If it was just Seishin's face for 10 minutes with the voice actor narrating his thoughts, that would bore a lot of people away. Perhaps they decided that the alternative religion/martyr path was too difficult to portray. That's also why they probably shifted the focus to Natsuno, because he's easier to portray.
Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 4 comments Show 4 comments no subject sinnesspiel 2014-02-12 06:33 pm (UTC)(link) Hah, I always thought Anne Rice vampires were the first wave of porny ones, but I've never actually seen or read her stuff. I've just heard people drool about their sexiness and gay subtext...but given me and my ilk see gay subtext in everything, that may not mean a damned thing.I don't know, I think Sunako romanticizes her situation and makes excuses for her lot pretty freely. She's also kind of into identity politics, not liking to be called vampires but liking to call her "servant" class werewolves. But I don't like her, so I'm prone to see the worst in her. I do agree she'd probably hate the more modern vampire fiction where they're less disadvantaged/dead/disgusting and more super powered hunks and babes, but that might be jealousy...
Some of Seishin's internal monologues makes it into the next episode previews Seishin narrates. I never saw those until I got the DVDs, but I think if a series were going more off of the novel that it'd be central enough to have in the series proper. Maybe for a reformat to the novel, a visual/sound novel would be better suited than an anime. I've been toying with the idea of pasting the text into a VN. They're not too difficult to make, aside from having to make character sprites. With some creative interfacing, one might be able to get by just with character face icons, too.
But then again, we're still just at the build up point. Maybe it will feel more action oriented when we get to the vampiric reveal. Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 3 comments Show 3 comments no subject airlynx 2014-02-14 02:58 am (UTC)(link) I know exactly nothing about Anne Rice works either. But it's true that vampires always represented lust and sins that humans find hard to overcome. By abandoning humanity and being 'abandoned by God' as Sunako put it, they're also abandoning the morals that govern the world (morals that were even more important in the 19th century when vampire fiction was really starting to roll) and by preying on humans, they bring down their morals too. In Dracula at least, the female vampire Lucy preyed on young men by playing on their suppressed lusts, and on young children by corrupting their innocence. These elements of corruption and loss of innocence seem to be abandoned in favor of wangst and wimpiness these days. Also, there's a scene in Dracula when the Count takes the blood of a young woman and it's obviously supposed to remind the reader of a rape scene...
I really dislike Sunako too. I hate her attitude of dramatically 'figuring out just what I've become' and, convinced that she's abandoned by God and can't do anything about it, continues to use her position to wreak havoc and be a pretentious little twat. But I always saw her as kind of accepting that she's a beast that needs to hunt humans--cause she's not one of them anymore (which is a fact that's really highlighted in older vampire works, that they're not human now) and so she does whatever she wants. Theeeen, she whines that God doesn't forgive her...but would God forgive a human that committed the same crimes as she did? If she's 'only trying to survive', who forced her to gather up the Kirishiki cult and then use said cult to create an undead village just so she can be herself? Screw you, Sunako!
I saw the monologues too, but I haven't watched Shiki since I started to read the translation, so I didn't put two and two together to realize that's where the preview voiceovers were from! I thought they were kind of odd, just stuck onto the end of the episode to build drama. Turns out they're actually canon, huh.
You could get away with just using characters, if you put them against some Shiki-esque background, like black and white photos of pine trees. That would be very Sotoba.
I'm really wondering how Ono will handle all the action at the end! So far the story's been slow-paced, I'm curious to read it fast-paced. Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 2 comments Show 2 comments no subject sinnesspiel 2014-02-18 08:09 pm (UTC)(link) I've read that monsters tend to reflect specific fears but I'm not sure how much stock to put in that kind of psychoanalysis. Surely some writers just use monsters because it's easier than focusing on a villain character's motives and development when you just wanna make them scary and strong. Ono's not exactly subtle about what she's going for with her vampires.
Yeah, VNs are basically clicking through text with some character sprites, music, sound effects, and sometimes a CG. Many do involve choices to change the routes of the story and voice acting. Thread Reply to this Thread from start Parent Thread Hide 1 comment Show 1 comment no subject airlynx 2014-02-20 05:49 pm (UTC)(link) I don't think most writers when penning monster novels attempt to pick the best type of monster to play on the characters' fears, but they can certainly choose to I guess. I think the best villain would be one that can keep the story moving because it's usually the villain that makes the plot. I guess you can kinda say that the vampires reflect Ozaki's fears as a doctor because they bring in a seemingly incurable disease, but that's kind of an ass pull.
I feel like I should try some VNs now. I've definitely heard of them before, but to be able to make choices in the story sounds like a cool idea. Do they involve the reader then, so the reader is a main character? Or is it like a video game where you pick a character to control?
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